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Jihad: |
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To G, Jon, and Israel, I have a question of definitions and collective punishment [dangerous to lump like this, but there is a common thread here]. G and Israel seem to advocate collective punishment against Palestinians. This is an effective tactic. It is also an act of terror outlawed by international law for very important reasons. Israel is a nation; Palestine is not--although I will develop this point further later on. Israel’s actions are not "balanced" or legitimized by a mirrored terrorist act from the group you mention out of Iran. The truth is you do not know what these people or their families would do. You are making a gross and racist assumption (like Israel) that demonizes all families of Palestinian suicide bombers, civilians in the PA offices, etc. An assumption that like Prospero unto Caliban just might conjure such a demon from those families (if I can risk looking like a jerk for my reading of The Tempest.) Jon, you often use the word "Palestinians" in your post (I imagine, and as many people do) as a substitute for "Palestinian militant extremists and terrorists.” Of course, Jon, you must know that many Palestinians do not advocate these kinds of activity. These activities are also the result of the destabilization of the PA. Israel literally militates against a central, coordinated Palestinian effort (and understandably so, from a grand strategic perspective). Here is, however, a bit of linguistic violence on your part that legitimizes certain policies by Israel. Yes, the "Palestinians" we are speaking about are Palestinians but they are not representatives of the non-existent Palestinian nation in the same way that the Israeli army represents Israel. Here is a specific example:
How fair a judgement is that? Which “Palestinians” are you even talking about? Is it fair to “use the same term?” Additionally, your closing remark:
seemed to suggest that my position supports the Palestinian militants' actions (I may be mistaken in my reading). I should have been more direct in my earlier posts. In fact, I do not support the actions of these Palestinians who target civilians. I understand them, as I understand Israel's actions, but I do not support their bloodshed. I do believe Israel has more power in the situation, however, as the legitimized international nation, and the party with the superior firepower, and the party with the ability to actually adhere to international law and treaties. Palestine, which doesn't exist in many ways, may or may not have this power. And so, I do look to the nation that has much more power in the situation to diffuse it. I don't support the actions of either terrorist group--Israel or Palestinians who target civilians--but Israel as a legitimate nation does have power to effect a change, which they often intentionally do not use in policies outside of direct “blood and guts” violence. So I look to Israel more--"blame" them more might be accurate, but blame is all over. Israel is a nation acting as a terrorist group, and these Palestinians are collective individuals. There are a few points where we clearly disagree, though. You assert:
I think this perspective minimizes Israeli policies. I am not simply talking about land. I am talking about a widespread economic violence. This violence kills innocent Palestinian families slowly and silently. Although it falls beneath the radar of the West more easily, it is nevertheless very violent. Denying water, or the economic ability to care for your family is abhorrent. Israel has a strong policy of apartheid. If a child dies because someone blew themselves up in a crowded mall, or because the father couldn’t pay for medicine because he is a second class citizen, or because of extraordinary poverty, or because all traffic is closed by Israel in a gross act of collective punishment (I am not speaking of tactical closures, and it is a blurry line, but one Israel does cross), the innocent child is unfairly dead due to a collective punishment. Death is socially very democratic, at least. They are all horribly, terribly dead. Both nations would be equal here, but Israel is the only actual nation, and ever increasingly the only real authority in the area. As I suggested in my earlier response, I think you and I have different definitions of “violence.” This point is related to the “targeting” issue:
I will concede much of this point. The reason I brought it up was because I was upset by this slippage of language I see here. You write articulately, but “targeting,” “violence,” and even “Palestinians” have become imprecise terms in our dialogue. This is part of why the issue and any dialogue about the issue is so problematic. I find your “distinction” between the ways civilians get killed here to be significantly more arbitrary than you do. And here, you and I have no hope of agreeing:
I don’t understand how this statement coincides with so much of the anecdotal evidence of Israeli violence against Palestinians. Sometimes, yes, I would agree with this, but so often, I cannot. I don’t see shooting a 14-year-old child for shaking a fence after someone he cared for died as “going after Palestinian militants.” I see that as an act of laziness, stupidity, callousness, or terror. Similar acts, coupled with a long time apartheid system, total disregard for international law and UN resolutions, becomes a policy of terror. You hope for a MLK/Ghandi to emerge (as do I). The cards dealt the Palestinians in this game are even worse than those dealt Northern Ireland around the turn of the last century (there are a number of similarities, I should add). I think the Israeli government would feel threatened by such a movement and would have very good reasons to militate against it. I don’t imagine such a thing will happen any day soon with the waves of violence so fresh. If it does happen, I imagine it will happen after Israel completely decimates Palestinian resistance and people and brings about a solidly Israeli nation; although, I believe there is an equal chance of the Palestinian people being ground into dust before that can happen. —Mario "The Hag" Cerame other responses to "Israel" |
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